John Schinnerer 0:00
I was killing myself. I was student body president. I was captain of three varsity teams. And I was taking advanced classes. Because I’m sure from the outside looking in you, I was like, wow, he’s doing great. Look at him. You can be like him. But my internal experience was, I was anxious a lot. I was exhausted. I was depressed some of the time. I was miserable a lot of the time. And I was just it left me wondering, like, what’s this success thing that people keep feeding me? Because I’m doing it. And I’m not feeling it.
Corey Benschop 0:36
Welcome to The Rising entrepreneur.com podcast for the dreamers, the doers and the believers. I’m your host, Corey Benschop. And it’s time to rise. What’s up everyone? Welcome back to the show. We have a very special guest for you today. He is a coach and he has Helps men actually to greater success and happiness both at work and at home. And he says that, you know, if you don’t have all four of these, then you really have none of them. So he’s graduated from UC Berkeley with a PhD in psychology. He recently received the award for Best executive coach in Danville for 2020 and best social content in 2019. He also has spoken to organizations such as Stanford Medical School, UC Berkeley, Kaiser Permanente, Sutter Health and ups and he was an expert consultant for Pixar his inside out which was an awesome movie by the way. He has coached executives at Kaiser Twilio, Oak de Stanford University, Airbnb Bank of America, Wells Fargo and more. And he’s been featured in national media such as US News and World Report, Reader’s Digest, fatherly and self magazine. And his areas of expertise range from high performance to stress management. He has the man box culture And he also helps with positive psychology to anger management to creating happy and thriving relationships. He hosts a top 10 podcasts and the self help space that’s focused on helping men find success and happiness. And that’s called the evolved caveman. I highly recommend you all go check that out. He also has over 10,000 people that have taken his online courses in anger management, as well as he recently recorded a micro course on anger management and forgiveness, for simple habit, which has listened has been listened to nearly 100,000 times in the first year alone. That’s incredible. Please, please please welcome to the show the incredibly accomplished and talented dr. john chinar.
Unknown Speaker 2:41
Hey, thanks, guys. Great to be here.
Nathan Kettler 2:43
Welcome. Welcome. I’m so excited for this one. You’re gonna have so much value for ryzen entrepreneurs everywhere that we’re so excited to dig into. On the inside out is like I’m just to hear that of course is awesome because Such and such like, it’s one of my favorites ever and because of the depth of what’s going on inside the mind, so, so cool that you consulted on that.
Corey Benschop 3:09
Yeah, definitely. I definitely want to dig into that a little bit too. But real quick, man, it’s something that we do you know, for for all of our guests. Before we get started, I was I was doing a little research and I was listening to your podcast, which again, is amazing. The evolved caveman. I like the title. But thanks. Yeah, I was I was going through one of your recent episodes, and you were talking about resilience, really. And I and I know right now, you know, we’re kind of going through a crazy time with this whole COVID thing. But without going too deep into that I really think that resilience and, you know, you were talking about sort of the opposite of depression is hope. And I think just as business owners as entrepreneurs, you know, that’s something we all have to deal with, right? Because running a business is tough, and we have to be resilient. So I was wondering if you could just expand on that a little bit more here.
John Schinnerer 3:56
Sure. What I did for that article in that podcast was There’s research by Rick Snyder, who’s at UC Davis, I believe. And he looks at hope. And he broke down into three parts. There’s path, sorry, there’s objective or goal, there’s pathway and there’s agency. What does that mean? It means that you need to have a goal that you’re shooting for. And you need to see the steps that you need to take to get there. And then agency is your belief that you can get there that you can do it. Whether you need to learn the skills, whether you need the emotional management skills, whether you need the intelligence or the funding, you can you believe that you can get there. And so what I did with that is I was looking at values the other day, and I added values on the front end. So it’s values, delete the goals that lead to the pathway that lead to agency and values to me, I used to be, I used to present to a continuation High School, which is where all the kids go that fail out of traditional high schools. So it’s a tough crowd to present to because half of them are stoned at the time. You know, they’re oppositional defiant or ADHD, they’re depressed, they got, you know, an earbud in one ear, and they’re like, dude. And so I was and I would present there once a month for four years because they liked what I had to say, which is pretty wild. But I was trying to think of how do I go into values for that population and it’s a difficult sell. So I came up with this exercise, can I run you through it? It’ll take like, please
Nathan Kettler 5:23
play that quiz.
John Schinnerer 5:24
Basically, imagine yourself going into the operating room, like you’re at the hospital, you’re going into surgery, you’re lying on the table, and you flatline your heart stops. Your soul comes out of your body, which is you, I would argue, and now you’re looking down at your body on the table.
Unknown Speaker 5:44
And here’s the question
John Schinnerer 5:47
for what do you come rushing back into your body with energy, excitement, vigor, passion and purpose? For what do you choose to live and that was the best exercise Besides, I could come up with to get them to consider what is most important to you? Is it, you know, is making wealth? Is it physical health? Is it family? Is it serving others? Is it saving the environment? what is important to you? There’s no right answer there. But if you have it, if you can hold on to like two or three of your top values, they add is like guardrails to go down life. And it’s really helpful. That’s
Corey Benschop 6:24
Yeah, that’s really interesting. And, you know, it’s one of those things, that it’s a good frame to put people into, right, that that analogy of being hovering over your body, I mean, because when you ask people like, what are your values? What do you care about, you know, what’s most important to you? It’s such a real question, right? It’s hard to actually to put your finger on so to give some people an analogy, to visually kind of understand what that would mean, I think can actually put them in that that mindset of Okay, you know, like, if I’m dead, right, like, when would the thing if I could pull one thing to get me back into my body to go, you know, gung ho about life, what would it be? That’s that That’s pretty cool, man. I like that. Thanks.
Unknown Speaker 7:02
Yeah, that that.
Nathan Kettler 7:04
And that frame, what makes you rush back into your body? Right? Because in that group in that group, some people might not some people might answer nothing. It’d be the most poignant time they ever realized, as it seemed, I got nothing. I got nothing right now, that’s making me and they’re not going to answer that out loud. You know, I mean, and that, with that, you know, that question? Like you said, there’s no right or wrong answer. But that question alone goes, What is your deepest moving driver to matter in this world in such a subtle way and the story of it immediately puts you into the situation of course, you’ve been doing this a long time. So you’ve got but I love that exercise. Yeah,
John Schinnerer 7:51
and and Nathan, so I mean, you’re absolutely right, because I have had clients that are really really depressed and they do come up with nothing, and then nothing to circle back all the way around. Back to hopelessness which equates to depression.
Corey Benschop 8:03
Nathan Kettler 8:04
I had a I had a dark moment, not not too far in the distant past where and it was rising entrepreneurs, right you ever make a promise to yourself and and not keep it and then do that again and again and like, at some point, you run out of hope like I’m not doing the thing I’m supposed to do. I’m not I’m not stepping up to the plate that way I know I can step up. And like as somebody who is hard on themselves and trying to be the best that I can be, I don’t take a moment for compassion, right? And so as that stacks up event, initially, you run out of ways to be hopeful in yourself and believe in yourself. And so I sat there going, Okay, well, this works for this person, but then maybe they do what they say they’re going to do for themselves. You know, I’m just being hard on myself. I’m gonna do what I say I’m going to do but in this situation was all that I couldn’t and I had to find hope outside of myself. You know, and it’s and it was because it was like, like, usually I’m real quick to go to the hope I’m real good that life happens for you, not to you, but when you can’t figure out why this is happening for you, and it’s really dark and you have no hope I’m just I’m agreeing with you because if I didn’t have for me, and it goes into our core mission, but for me it was, you know, the odds that I’m sitting here right now are astronomical. And I’m created from pure potential like that, like the fact that I’m here like I am valued like otherwise I wouldn’t be here with these astronomical odds and and I’ve lived a life that no one else has ever lived. So I see things differently than other people do. So I am unique, like an AI that means I am unique value. And so I’m supposed to be here for what that is whether I don’t know what it is, I don’t know how to give it away yet. I don’t know how to implement it into everything, but clearly, innately as a human being, you you are unique value and that was my hope that brought me out of my dark time, but I do Just I’m with you 100% that without the hope the dark gets deeper and darker?
John Schinnerer 10:05
Yeah, Nathan, thank you for sharing that. I mean, you bring up a really fascinating point. It’s a question I’ve dealt with, with some of my depressed clients in the sense of when you’re really depressed. What pulls you out of that? Is it you believing in yourself? Do you have to believe in yourself first? Or maybe? Is it someone on the outside believing in you first? And so, you know, a lot of times I’m telling my clients like, Look, I believe in you, even if you’re not believing in yourself right now I get that. And let me just hold the space for the possibility that you can get out of this downstate? Because I believe you can.
Corey Benschop 10:35
Yeah, I think that external having that that external support is super critical. You know, especially for people that are that low in that moment. And we all go that low from time to time, right. Life is a cycle, sometimes you’re at the top, absolutely at the bottom. And so like, it’s important to have that and I think, you know, again, like Nathan said that’s part of our core mission to with what we’re doing and really trying to provide that space as well for others to see that They are that value, they do have that. And we believe in them, even if we don’t know them, like, we believe in them, you know what I mean? To bring it back to entrepreneurship, I really appreciate what you guys are doing. Because I
John Schinnerer 11:09
know in my entrepreneur, Hill path, my guess, like I’ve had ups and downs, I’ve had wins and losses, I’ve been high, and I’ve been low, and I’ve been depressed this shit before. Like, I had a company that went great for six, seven years, and then 2008 came and just wiped it out. Mm hmm. And, you know, I was depressed. I felt like a failure as a father as a husband as a man. And I think those are really normal feelings. So I think to give people room to feel that and to just go, even when you’re in the thick of it to know that this is normal, and you’re going to get out of it at some point. That’s huge. I mean, it’s it’s as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning. We just don’t know when. But the moon will lift eventually you just have to hold on long enough. I love it. I love it. Well, dr. john, we got it. We got to jump into the origin of you, man and like how you actually became To be this amazing force and helping people doing what you’re doing, where did it all start? You know, like I know that obviously, you know, going to school to become a doctor that that starts at a certain place usually but take us back to the beginning like what, why what you’re doing right now? Okay, so my my parents were really hard driving overachieving individuals. I’m greatly proud of them. My dad was a really successful dentist. My mom was the first mayor of our town. And I think just unconsciously, I just thought, I’m gonna do the same to try and get their attention and their love. So by the time I was a senior in high school, I was killing myself. I was student body president. I was captain of three varsity teams, and I was taking advanced classes, I’m sure from the outside looking in you. I was like, wow, he’s doing great. Look at him. You can be like him. But my internal experience was, I was anxious a lot. I was exhausted. I was depressed some of the time. I was miserable a lot of the time. And I was just it left me wondering, like, what’s this success thing that people keep feeding me? Because I’m doing it and I’m not feeling it. Like I started thinking at the age of 17 like, Where’s the room and success for things like happiness and relaxation and contentment and joy? I didn’t have any answers at that time but I really started thinking about it because that there’s a whole story there but that senior year almost killed me. You know, I was just holding on to reality with my finger with like, my fingernails. But you know, worked I got no grade school, went to college. eventually got
Nathan Kettler 13:36
can we wait time? I tried. I tried to like dr. john. I tried to let you go with it. But like yeah, like my like, you can’t to hook you look. So so so you’re talking senior year. Now we are hanging on by by your fingernails. So so you’re having a successful high school career cabinet. three teams you got it together. You’re the one that was like, man, he’s and your peers don’t know either they think you got it together everyone thinks you got it together. And you’re holding you, you hooked me with, you’re holding on to reality just like a thread with your feet out. So what’s to take us to that? what’s what’s going on?
John Schinnerer 14:21
Okay, so the biggest problem is my parents were really busy at that time. So I was just kind of doing my own thing, which is fine. I was 17. But my student government advisor, who was also my AP history teacher had this hyper focus for male student body presidents. And so she really wanted to get into every part of my life like she wanted to talk on the phone every night because we have to set the agenda for student government tomorrow. And that became like that bled into you know, what are you doing who you’re dating, and it just became the boundaries got really blurry and she would then start Give me money she started buying me stuff. I mean, like she bought rims from my car that were like 3500 bucks. I think the rims were worth more than the car. Ah, you know she got me a limo for senior ball like and and it just got really weird there’s no sex involved but you know at one point there was sort of this subtle threat of you know, if you ever blow the lid on this I’m going to kill myself
and and that’s where she got real real a lot of pressure.
Nathan Kettler 15:30
So I got a couple of I got a couple of questions because so like now because now you now you got all his experience, you can go back and look at like, what was really you know, going on in a different level. But like it’s 17 you know, because like I’m thinking like, maybe maybe she wants you to be like a protege. I know, like, like when you’re successful. It’s like she helped said but it sounds like it was deeper than that. So you were you’re just you have a mentor at school and and that’s where it starts and how did you think I got a mentor Someone’s helped me and it got really deep to the point. She’s 30 $500 rims. Like, what’s going on with that?
John Schinnerer 16:10
Well, yeah. And it was one of the reasons I got into psychology to figure out what happened there. Because it was not usual. And you know, two years prior, she’d had a male student body president. And he kind of blew the whistle on the whole thing. And it was really hard for her and he stopped being student body president, like two thirds of the way through the through the school year. She still
Nathan Kettler 16:31
didn’t give up.
John Schinnerer 16:32
Yeah, he still did it again. And she had five grown kids. And they’re the youngest was about my age. So there was some weird stuff going on. And, you know, I think that she lacked a sense of self. So she wanted to get her sense of self through what I was doing.
But I mean, it was hard because she was the most powerful in the high school and She was very bright, but I think she was badly damaged from her own childhood. So in my mind, I’m thinking if I can just hang on long enough and get through the school year, then all of beat the other student body president that gave it up two thirds the way through, right? That was like, I was super competitive and everything I did, which is not the best way to be, but in my mind, I’m like, if I can just hold on long enough, if I can just make it through, then, you know, have done it. And and I did, but it was really, really tough. Yeah, there’s a line going on around me. And I couldn’t tell who was doing the lying. You know, was my girlfriend. Is it this teacher? Is it this other teacher like? And so that was really that messed me up too, because I didn’t know who to trust. Right?
Unknown Speaker 17:44
That’s a really
Nathan Kettler 17:46
confusing one then in time, like as a teenager, learn how to trust anyway. Right? Like, like I got I got five of them. You’ll know who to trust. Yeah, I mean, so. So but but then you add to it real Real curious, like real human who to trust. And so you’re holding on to by thread what you were doing, I think as rising entrepreneurs that we all need to look at, like, there’s gonna be things he like, what is it? That’s gonna get me through this thing? Right? Like, it’s hard, it’s impossible for you use competition, I’m gonna beat this other guy. So they’re like, where do you find? So that’s just a lesson for everybody in this right?
John Schinnerer 18:21
So let me tell you the exact lesson there, Nathan, to me the exact lesson the exact lesson is tragedy masks the opportunity for growth. And so you were always pushed to grow. And so the the question you need to be asking yourself even right now is, what am I supposed to be learning from this? And usually the answer to that goes back to a value, you know, I should spend more time with family or I need to shift gears and get a different job. But it those answers usually bring us closer to ourselves to our family, and ideally to humanity as a whole. But you know, the funny thing is to continue that story a little bit. She kind of followed me into college. She would send me like care packages of like, top shelf liquor, cookies and cash. And the hard part is at 1718. Like, that’s hard to say no to right. And my friends at college girl like, now, what did you do with this teacher? Like, no, no, I but it wasn’t like that. I know, it’s weird and but it wasn’t like that. And so as a sophomore, I actually had to go have lunch with her and just say, Look, I don’t want to have any more connection. Like, I hope you don’t harm yourself. But if you do that’s on you. It has nothing to do with me.
And that would be your choice. And that’s hard to do at 18
Corey Benschop 19:35
Yeah, that’s a lot of responsibility to hold at that age to I mean, you know, you like, you obviously don’t want her to do anything harmful and for her to put that on you. You know, that’s that sucks. But I love what you pulled out of it. The fact that tragedy masks you know, the opportunity for growth and I and I see that everywhere. You know, in my life, I look at anything tragic that happened to me, right? I could take it one of two ways. And now that I’m sort of starting to grow in that emotional side and trying to implement the things that I learned in personal development. Like I can see that, you know, like, I look back, like, what did that tragedy have to teach me about as opposed to, and that sucked. And it took me down all these levels and notches, and this is why my life sucks now because of
John Schinnerer 20:17
it. And I think the biggest thing is the biggest thing I took out of that one is if that didn’t destroy me, psychologically, nothing will Yeah, everything in the future is going to be cake compared to that. That doesn’t mean to be easy. It’ll just be easier. So let me may not even be true, but it’s a really powerful thought to have.
Corey Benschop 20:36
Yeah, for sure. For sure. And so like, okay, fast forward as then, like, continue forward. And you know, why psychology? I mean, I know it’s to kind of figure out what happened there. But you know what, that’s a big undertaking, right?
John Schinnerer 20:50
Yeah, so the other. I had a friend early on, his dad committed suicide and he did it in a In the house while he and his mom were there, didn’t even know did it with a gun. And so I spent three, four months living with him, and, you know, trying to process that whole thing for a quarter. And that was really difficult to he would have dreams every night and kind of wake up the dreams were like him having conversations with his dad asking why, why, why, why. And that was another kind of pivotal moment that it starts my brain going trying to figure out why would someone do that? And so there’s a couple things like that that happened that eventually wound me up at the Ph. D. program at Cal. And boy, that was no picnic. So I did and I thought it was gonna be a five year program after undergrad, I get in the students that I was with like, Oh, no, no, like average undergraduates. 10 years. I was like, Oh, no, no, no, no, like, I am not spending 10 years in a Ph. D program. so fortunate I got out an eight. And then I was trained to be a school psychologist, became a school psychologist was working with kids, the best part of my job was working with like high school kids would come in and tell me their stories, right. But I didn’t know at the time that emotions are contagious because I was kind of an emotional idiot, which is why I was in psychology in the first place. And so they come in, and they’re telling me stories, and the stories are filled with anger, guilt, shame, fear, sadness, appropriately. So but I start picking up all their emotions because I’m really empathetic. And it just ended up with me taking on all their negative emotions. And I went down, down, down down and eventually got depressed. And when we get depressed, we know that inflammation in the body goes up. So any of the old injuries that you have kind of come back, which for me, it’s my low back. So I remember I’m laying on the floor, I’m in pain. I’m losing hope. Hope does a suicide jump out the window, and I’m thinking okay, this is ridiculous. Like, here I am a site trained to cow and I still can’t manage My own emotions. So I made a conscious decision at that point to learn the best, scientifically proven tools to manage that darker side of the human psyche, anger, fear, sadness, mostly. And it worked. I mean, it was part of the solution. It helped to, you know, give these kids some tools that they could use. Um, but then I went and did an entrepreneurial venture with a classmate of mine from Cal, and we created a company that does online pre employment testing for really large companies, like ups. And we did a pilot study with them and showed them that it reduced turnover by 33% in the package handler position, which is a huge savings for them in an industry where profit margins are thin. And so it went, boom from there, it was great. Then 2007 2008 came. Everyone’s losing their jobs. They’re fearful. They hold on to their jobs. Hey, no turnover problem. And they’re like, we don’t need you anymore. Like so that was My first lesson in cyclical and counter cyclical businesses. So I had to reinvent myself and I actually got depressed again then. Because, you know, again, kind of a failure as father, husband, man, because we get a lot of our identity from what we do.
And so I got into positive psychology at that point, and started just eating up all these studies because now I had tools to kind of turn down the volume on the negative and tools to turn up the volume on the positive and I was like, holy shit, like this is really powerful. So I wrote a book compulsively. I wrote like 600 pages of how to coach people towards a successful and happy life. And then I realized shit, no one’s gonna read 600 pages. So, at that point, I got offered a radio show, a live primetime daily radio show, which that scared the crap out of me because I got a little anxiety to Me, too. And no one had ever taught me anything about doing live radio. And I was bad in the beginning. Like I couldn’t tell a story. Couldn’t Joe couldn’t emote. And I was like relying on research studies. And I realized that no one gives a shit about the research, like, it’s good information, but it doesn’t change people’s behaviors. So then I learned how to tell stories and kind of, you know, kind of relaxed into it. And I got to interview some world class experts, which was awesome. walked away from that, after about a year, opened up private practice, published part of the book, and then took it from there. And then I realized pretty quickly that my business model is terrible. As I said earlier, that, you know, I had to work an hour to get paid an hour. So I got into creation of online courses and started with an anger management course. Because I thought, hell, there’s got to be millions of angry men out there. And you know, they don’t have the courage to come in or don’t have the finances to come in or just aren’t nearby. And while I could make a dent in this world, I could make the world a little bit better place. So I made a 15 hour video course threw it up online. Let me start getting emails from angry women all around the world, which was kind of funny. We’re angry too. All right, all right, they just
Nathan Kettler 26:03
dad. Interesting. So I was gonna, I was gonna say because because there’s a lot of people, right, we all have this unique value and you have this gift that we’re trying to give away. And so you get this thing like, okay, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of these people, but but selling somebody you can’t sell like anger management, right? Because Because I don’t want anger management, I want you to manage my anger that sounds court induced. So so like, so just digging in right there like, because that’s what we, that’s where a lot of us have problems, we got this gift. We’re trying to give it to the world. And we don’t know how to package it in a way that the world actually wants to receive it. And so so what did you do there? Right, because there’s a hump there to overcome.
John Schinnerer 26:43
Yeah, it’s a really good question, because marketing that has been one of the greatest challenges I’ve ever faced, because anger, the very dynamic of anger is if I’m angry at you, Nathan, it’s all your fault in my mind. I don’t have any blame. So why would I need to Look at Myself, if you would just stop doing x, I’d be fine. I wouldn’t be mad. And and so I think, you know, I’ve played around I’ve done I’ve used different terms, irritability, annoyance, frustration, do it for your kids do it for your spouse, trying to tap on different levers for motivation. I’ve also done videos of you know, if someone tells you one time that you’ve got an issue with anger, you honestly need to take a look at that. And I really think truthfully, one of the approaches I take is that we all need to look at our anger, because everyone I’ve talked to is like, Well, I’m not really an angry person. That’s true. Because 9598 99% of the time you’re not angry. But that 1% of the time when you get really pissed off, and you punch holes in the wall or you yell at someone with an insult like that’s a problem. Yeah, but it’s it’s a really good question. And I wish I had like a fence.
Nathan Kettler 27:51
No, it’s okay but and that’s that’s there’s part of the answer take different approaches, because different things gonna resonate with different people. So there’s a belief path right all markets getting his we have our ABCs of marketing attention, belief and conversion, right? get their attention, get them to believe that you’re thinking help them right and turn that that attention or that belief into action. But with that belief come you have to pick them up where they are in the road. Right? And so if it’s and if it’s if it’s your child is scared of you, that may that may do more than your wife is, is getting tired of you, right? Just for men, because that’s your, your market. Right?
John Schinnerer 28:28
The other way I come at it is from the perspective of psychological safety that you know, one of the things I’ve realized in my years of doing this is that us feeling safe is a really, really big fucking deal. And it’s safe. It’s a big deal at work, like Google did a study a couple years ago showing that the most productive teams, the number one predictor of that was that they felt psychologically safe. So they felt safe to bring up stupid questions. They felt safe to bring up stupid ideas. They weren’t gonna get criticized or mocked or received sarcasm. And that’s a huge deal. It’s you know, you need safety in your relationship. You need safety for your children. They need to feel safe. I mean, we know for women to have an orgasm, she needs to feel safe. She needs to relax. She has to relax your body so she doesn’t feel safe at any level. Guess what? No orgasm. Oh my gosh you’re
Nathan Kettler 29:20
so so I you know this for me I just got gotta dig into it is it for much of marketing revelation because because I know that I that you have to protect an increase status in a sales cycle. Right I can’t lower your status as I’m trying to sell my thing are you because you got to admit things you don’t want to admit, which is safety. But But taking safety as a as it that’s why IBM outsold everyone else because no one got fired for choosing IBM or Microsoft. Whichever one was right. No one, no one got fired for picking the safe bet. And so they went with the safe bet. And so and so safety just just don’t Understanding that because I got this this framework of the castle of critical doubt of your psychology when you’re selling to somebody, which I’ll get into another time, but, but that whole thing of like, that’s what that castle is about is their safety. And that’s so so making sure that in your marketing, you’re keeping that person safe, or you’re guiding them from where they feel unsafe to a place where they feel safe, is gonna move, but also, how do I say, this is the logical part of it? How do I say what I’m doing in a way that’s safe? Because of you because if you can’t say I’m taking an anger management course, you can’t just come and say that. So how can I say What? How can I be proud of what I’m doing in a way that makes me safe as well? So when people are, you know, if you can think about in your marketing, how am I making people feel safe? Or how am I taking away their safety? I mean, it’s another level deep, but if you’re just
John Schinnerer 30:51
and I love your passion point, and one of the things that it brings to mind is I try and normalize anger for everyone, that we all get angry at times. It’s actually a normal human emotion, we just have to, I think every one of us has to learn how to manage it better. because ideally we’d become like assertive where we say, hey, Nathan, you know, I need you to treat me with respect, or I need you to bring your volume down a little bit so I can speak up to what’s annoying me, rather than letting it build up and get aggressive later, when you know, the bucket of negative emotions get gets filled, and we build and go volcanic over everybody.
Nathan Kettler 31:24
And, and something for angry people. That is, just because you don’t care. Like just because you don’t. You’re like for me. I’m like, if you got a problem with anything I’m saying in any way, you can bring it up to me at any time. And so I don’t so like, but so I feel like sometimes like if it builds up, but I don’t even say come to people anytime. So sometimes like well, if it builds up, he didn’t say anything to me. I don’t care and then you get on me and I get angry at you. That was your fault. You should have said something earlier before you got angry. Now I’m reacting to you. And so so and you have to look at it and go well where’s my role in this So that I can prevent these situations where’s where’s you know, because I mean, you know, I’ll admit when I’m when I’m wrong. But and but only after the moment only after the fact and
Corey Benschop 32:13
Nathan, we talked about this a lot right? possibility, you know you gotta take responsibility for everything that you’re doing and I think like you said, dr. john, it’s always like dealing with fear or fear or anger. We’re always in a state of improving right and optimizing so you can never call it done technically, you can never say, Oh, I got this part of me figured out now let’s move on. Like we’re always needing to work on these areas. Right
John Schinnerer 32:37
when and I think this part of our psyche is the scariest part for men. And so I any any man that’s willing to dip a toe into their mind, I really applaud and tell them how courageous they are. Because it takes guts. I mean, to me, there’s a quote that I can’t massacre, but it’s something like, the mind is like a scary neighborhood that you’re afraid to go in alone. Hmm, that’s good. And then you know, that’s also why I talked when I talked about the mind. I’ll throw a lot of F bombs in there because in my mind, that’s how it was in the past. You know, you fucking dumb ass. Who me know and like,
Nathan Kettler 33:12
I’m like, but I got a PhD. I wrote a book. You know, I remember that time. Remember that time didn’t do that one thing. Yeah.
John Schinnerer 33:20
When I can. The thing is, I can find evidence to support that thought, right? Oh, yeah, I did fuck that up. Oh, yeah. I shouldn’t have said that to her. Oh, yeah, you know, but it just ruins the emotional quality of your day.
Unknown Speaker 33:34
I agree. Nathan,
Corey Benschop 33:37
Nathan Kettler 33:38
It is time. So we have a little segment that we’re introducing is called perils and pearls. And so like we like you had said on tours wander a broken path, like you said, You ups and downs. You’ve wanted a broken path in your path as a rising entrepreneur. And during that path, you’ve gone through this journey that we’re all going through but you Seeing parts that no one else has seen. you’ve overcome perils that other people haven’t come to yet. And in going through those, you’ve claimed pearls that can help other people guide through them. So what we’re going to ask is what in this whole crazy journey? What is the your biggest parallel or the number one peril that you’d like to help people rising entrepreneurs save themselves from?
John Schinnerer 34:26
That’s a great question. I don’t know that you can save yourself from it. I think you can. Okay, normalize it and immerse yourself in it. I think that when we have a failed business, which most of us are going to have, if you’re a serial entrepreneur, you’re going to experience a depression, some sort of depression. And you’re going to feel like a failure in different parts of your, your journey. And I think, you know, for me, it was failures, Father failures, husband failures, a man and those are big hits. I also think they’re really normal cuz I’ve talked to a lot of entrepreneurs who’ve done exactly the same thing. So realize that when you You have a failure as a business, that’s okay. That’s a huge learning experience. And just know that that depressive hit is going to come. And you’re going to get through it. So the best way to get through it is to turn towards it rather than try and hold it at bay. and label it say, yeah, I’m depressed and go with it for a little bit. Like give yourself some room to feel depressed. And it might be days it might be weeks could be months. But you want to slowly start to take small steps to dig out of that over time. And there’s a bunch more I could say there, but that’s the biggest one is know that when you fail, depression is probably going to follow as a man and that’s okay. Don’t be ashamed of it. reach out for help. Get out of your man cave, do what you need to do.
Nathan Kettler 35:42
I love that because there’s some perils that you’re going to trip into. There’s some some even though I marked that even though I marked the territory, I told you, it was coming. I marked it. I put a big sign right here business failed. Here, depression ahead, and you didn’t see it because you can’t because you can’t tell you’re in it. You go Okay, but but then you don’t really want to see it. So admitting it. Once you’re in there, that pearl of how to climb out, right how to climb out of, of it. Um, let’s, let’s get a little bit more sensitive. That is the pearl essence as the pearl that comes on the backside of this pearls and pearls, let’s get a little bit more into how to deal with that failure in business because as well as much worse, if you’re not doing you’re probably not trying, you know, you’re gonna fail at something at some point. So, so give it give us some more of the pearl. Let’s make that pro a little more robust to help us
John Schinnerer 36:30
Okay, so you know, in in psychology, there’s three major proven remedies for depression. And it by the way, this doesn’t mean you’re a depressed person, it just means you’re having a depressed mood. Right? And that’s okay. Either one is okay, actually, but it’s medication, meditation exercise. So meditation, something like mindfulness is something I believe every one of us should be practicing. And there’s 50 years of research to back that up. You know, lowers anger, or lowers depression or anxiety or stress increases frequency of positive emotions even speeds physical healing because I believe that it activates the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the relaxation response. medication, there’s no shame going to get an antidepressant. You can get one from your general MD. Typically, if you go and say, Hey, Doc, I’ve been feeling sad, I lost a business here and I just can’t shake this sad mood. Can we look at an antidepressant, you may need to try two or three antidepressants before you get the right one. There’s certain side effects that I just considered deal breakers instantly for me. One is sexual dysfunction. You can’t get it up, you can’t finish. One is weight gain, but there might be some other ones that are deal breakers for you. If that’s the case, you want to get off the antidepressant and some of these if you step them up, you got to step them down. So if you increase the dosage a couple times, you got to decrease the dosage over time. But, you know, if that’s the case, then I would get off the antidepressant and try different ones. They’re just going into it. No, you might need To try two or three or four before you get the right one. The other one is exercise exercise is probably the best solution. Because if you just exercise your way out of depression, you have a feeling of self efficacy, which means you feel like you have some control over it. You don’t need the medication, you don’t need other other interventions. So that’s the best long term solution. But the mindfulness is is a big one as well. The other thing I want to say to that is, so I got divorced between 2010 2013 it was finalized. And when I got separated, when I separated, I was depressed. And, you know, again, back to your idea, and I remember I just kind of holed up in my man cave for a couple months. And finally a friend came and said, Come on, john enough, we got to go out. And I was kind of like, you I don’t want to go out. And, and I didn’t I didn’t want to go out but I also knew that was the best thing for me to do was to go out and be social because even if you think about emotions in a way To 10 scale with one being super depressed and 10 being happy, you know, let’s say I was at a one or two, when you go out, you got to bring your energy up a couple notches, even if you don’t feel like it. So those couple hours that I’m out, I’m out of four, which is a relief and an improvement. And then, you know, when I go back would probably drop again. But at least I had a brief respite. And so you know, to be social is a big part, even if you don’t feel like it.
Nathan Kettler 39:24
So let me ask you this part of that if you’re struggling with, you know, the depression with depression or something, how do you find the right doctor, the right person to support you in that because a lot of times we want to lean on our best friend or we want to lean on our parents or we want to lean on somebody in our life and that’s and like, and then they’ve got their stories about you. Sometimes they don’t even allow you to be depressed because you’re depressed it affects them. And you’re not you’re you know, so you’re you’re not actually depressed, you’re just having this thing or, Oh, you’re so depressed. Now. I need to feel sorry for Now, welcome to my world, I was waiting for you to be depressed. Like, those are real things. So so how do we find? If we’re going through that? How do we find somebody or our support or whatever?
Unknown Speaker 40:11
Um, are you
John Schinnerer 40:12
talking to professional?
Nathan Kettler 40:13
Well, maybe, maybe, but like, but sometimes we’re afraid to professional like, what like, or how either that’s two questions, how do I find a professional that’s going to support not just say you need medicine, but support me holistically? And then, and then the other thing is, like, if I don’t want to go to it, like, Where do I find support people that understand?
John Schinnerer 40:32
Yeah, I think it’s a really good question. I think in terms of a professional I would ask people that, you know, and, and or first step would be to go to your general doctor, because a lot of general doctors can prescribe antidepressants and some are really, really good at it. Because it’s, it’s a really, really common problem. For me, I mean, one of the biggest problems on college campuses in the US today is anxiety and or depression, believe it and the numbers are staggering. Mm hmm. And, and so First thing to get into your mind is this is not unusual. This does not make you crazy. In fact, I would say this isn’t even a big deal like we can get this is very treatable. But you have to find someone that will help you with the medication then I would say you have to find someone that will help you learn some tools to manage your mind and your heart. And that’s kind of what I do. I had a psychiatrist friend that used to describe it this way. So a psychiatrist is someone that works on the car, if on the car, he looks under the hood and fixes the mechanics of the car. The psychologist is the guy that teaches you how to drive the car. Okay. And and so and there are two parts and I think we really need both. You know, I talked to a friend of mine recently who I said, Yeah, why don’t you go to your general MD, ask him for an antidepressant and then come back and let’s talk about tools to help you kind of get through this and learn how to be better. And so I have the impression I got was that he was thinking the antidepressant was the whole solution. And I think it can be a big part of it. I think it’s a necessary part of times. And it’s not the whole solution. Because we still need to learn how to communicate, you still need to learn how to deal with you know, anger, sadness, fear, we still need to learn how to spot and savor positive emotions. You need to learn gratitude, you need to learn forgiveness, you need to learn self compassion. I mean, there’s all these tools that have been proven in research that are ridiculously
Nathan Kettler 42:20
helpful. And the tools are hard to find, like, like and sometimes it seems like that because like what you know, and even in traditional psychology, you go to a psychologist, he’s Okay, listen, you know, we’ve been coming here for eight months. Like I just I just tell you like this, we had we have five kids, right? And so we’ve got a difference. Like, we’ve put all the money we had, like, Listen, we got 12 weeks I know you can’t solve everything in 12 weeks, but we’re looking to do is help you get to understand our child and give us some tools that we can use as they get to understand child like well, so let’s keep it simple. Like what are the tools that my child can use? What are the tool you know, are you and and that is where I think some people are Talking helps medicine helps tools help but tools how you do it yourself tools or how you how you can go into your you know, your space and deal with it. You know, anger management tools, what kind of tools? Do you provide for men? What kind I know you’ve got some courses and stuff I want to kind of transition into, into because that tool thing is difficult and stuff and how do you guide people to tools? What are the tools that that that you recommend in some of your programs and just kind of tell us more?
John Schinnerer 43:34
I mean, just as I’ve done in this interview, I mean, I think one of the big things I try and do is normalize feeling for men. Yeah. And, you know, I can say, Look, I’ve dealt with depression, I’ve dealt with anxiety, I’ve dealt with anger. That’s just they’re just normal human emotions or moods. And, and I do think it’s something it’s one of the important tasks that we have to learn in this lifetime is how to deal with each one of those negative emotions. But the thank you for asking about the courses so I’ve got an anger management course. It’s 15 hours video. Do. It’s got PDFs, it’s got audio files that are exercises like that teach mindfulness or loving kindness meditation, which, that’s one of my favorites. I used to shut out of that during my divorce in court, you know, maybe happy, maybe healthy may live life with ease and well being to manage my own anger in court when my special person was lying on the stand. Yeah, it was, anyway. And then I’ve got an anxiety management course to help people with anxiety and stress. And that’s a big one right now. And then I’ve got a positive psychology slash happiness course. And right now normally these classes are like 197 or 147. Right now, I’ve just cut everything to 1995 in an effort to just kind of give this stuff away to people. And I didn’t want to offer it for free because I want you to have some monetary game aim, so that you go through it and actually do it. And so I thought that was a pretty fair price. We’re also putting together we’re in the beginning steps of putting together a virtual summit with 15 to 20. top experts that we’re going to give that away for free to, at least for a month or two, because we feel I just feel the need to serve right now I feel that there’s a lot of people out there that need a lot of these tools, we know that domestic violence is on the rise, it’s at least 20% bump up. depression and anxiety are on the increase. And so in an effort to get those tools out there to a broader audience, we’re just going to try and give some of this stuff away. That’s all I gotta applaud that for sure. You know, because right now, like you saying more than ever, this is something that people need, you know, they need they need access to this stuff. And with money being in such a such a questionable space for a lot of people. That’s amazing that you’re doing that. So like where can they actually go to find those courses? So you can find my shop at any of my site. So there’s the evolved caveman calm, there’s guide to self calm and there’s the ultimate relationship calm, are the only two the same shops and you know, there’s a book there. There’s so many courses, forgiveness, anger management, those are kind of cool because they’re like little seven minute audio files. And there’s seven of them. So you get little lessons in each one.
Corey Benschop 46:11
Neat. Thank you, man. Thank you. And I think I just wanted to touch on real quick on what you’re talking about with normalizing this idea of having issues and being depressed and having anger and whatever these negative emotions that we feel from, you know, from a day to day basis, it is normal, it is normal and it is okay. And like, you know, giving people like Nathan said these tools, you know, meditation, medication, exercise, and understanding that we are in control. We do have the power to take ourselves out of these situations. And knowing that it’s, it’s normal means that okay, like, I’m going into it, it’s going to be okay, it’s a period of time and I will be coming back out which gives us that hope that we kind of started this whole thing on in the beginning. So definitely just you know, I just want to show some honor and appreciation to what you’re doing, man because it’s it’s really powerful work.
Unknown Speaker 47:01
Nathan Kettler 47:02
It is and you know, rajhans prayers when you got something and you know people need it, right. That’s how you that’s authentic market value like, Okay, listen, so many more people need this thing that I’ve got right now. So I need to reduce, right? Yes, you have to purchase something to fully commit to it like, Well, yeah, life like it’s, you know, so so like 95 is ridiculously low for you to get some of these issues in check. But it’s like that’s the thing is when you’re called to serve, and you and you and you serve at the highest and best level that you can. That’s, that’s what helps the most people and all that comes back to you, right? It’s a given first. And I do want to say about mindfulness just real quick because I was slow on the bandwagon had a buddy for like years, like yeah, you just got to do some meditation, till he gave me like an active way to meditate. I was like, No, but here’s what’s interesting. If you ever find yourself triggered, right? And just like it feels like someone else’s fault, that feels like a subconscious reaction and it is If you’re triggered in subcon, you actually don’t have control over that moment. And so and so there’s really only like two, there’s only two subconscious things that are really easy to control. You’re brilliant, you’re blinking. And you’re breathing. Well, if you click like a blinking is you know that, but if you you can, you’re gonna get tired doing overtime. But if you close your eyes, and you focus on your breathing, right, because I’m not good at mindfulness and with all fairness, but if I sometimes I get to the point where I could recognize the pause in between the breaths in and out. And that moment, that moment, the better I get it that the longer the longer I have between trigger and reaction, right. And
John Schinnerer 48:42
so you just described mindfulness, though, you said,
Nathan Kettler 48:44
mindfulness mean is that for me, for me, I didn’t want to do it and I’m just letting you know, like, but when I found that space when I was like, Okay, this is a way I can control the thing I can’t control. And that’s for me, like mentally Okay, here I can. I’m right. I’m out. Mail I want to be in control. And so mindfulness seems kind of, well, no, it’s a way to control that response so that you can be more stoic or more more strategic or more would like like it’s not just it’s super practical anyway to get it to gain control over those subconscious response. Yeah,
John Schinnerer 49:19
Nathan, you’re exactly on point. And the heart of the matter, I think lies in this quote from Viktor Frankl who said, there lies a space between stimulus and response and within that space is peacefulness. But the thing is that space what we found in research is it’s a third of a second between when your rational minds and controlling your emotional mind comes out and takes over and goes on and on. And but with practice, you can expand that third of a second to a second, five seconds, 10 seconds and then you can insert thoughts or do something go to the bathroom excuse yourself, and and then it’s not that difficult.
Corey Benschop 49:55
dr. john is this is this to me like what I’m hearing is the difference between reading Action versus responding.
John Schinnerer 50:01
Right, exactly. That’s another mindfulness phrase. I would, I would argue,
Corey Benschop 50:05
yeah. So instead of like just reacting to what it is that happened, right, which is that part, Nathan that you’re talking about? Like, we don’t really have control over that, because that’s it’s the animal action, you know, the animal in us. Yeah. And then No, you’re absolutely right, Corey, expanding that little bit of time between the active or like, whatever it was the event that took place, and then how we’re going to respond. That is that mindfulness and it’s something to that I’ve been trying to work on. And you know, it’s tough. It is. It’s a
John Schinnerer 50:34
lifelong practice. A lot of these are lifelong practices. I mean, forgiveness, self compassion, mindfulness. It’s not something it’s not a quick fix. These are pieces that you add your personality and you just keep doing them over time
Corey Benschop 50:46
on a laptop and
Nathan Kettler 50:48
so I got to go one, one other final question to wrap it up and then and we’ll just we can is other than the the other Pro, we want you to think of what One final pearled leave for our audience. But this is the one if you had two to three minutes to go back to yourself 1015 years ago, what’s the one pearl you would leave for yourself different than the one you gave us, take your time.
John Schinnerer 51:15
I would say get out of your head and pay attention to what’s going on in your body. Because we know that emotions are embodied. So if you want to figure out how you’re feeling, pay attention to your body. And we men are rewarded for being in our heads. We’re rewarded for thinking problem solving, getting good grades. And, you know, I really think that to paid more attention to what I was feeling and to listen to that. I might have avoided some of the mistakes that I made.
Unknown Speaker 51:45
Corey Benschop 51:47
That’s powerful at separation. You know, it’s separation, this thought and this mind that is running our day to day all the time and this is where we get lost, and then more that that that feeling of you know, your He really is telling you what you need and what you how you’re responding and how you’re feeling in a certain situation, but we have become so accustomed to turning that off. So it really is good advice.
John Schinnerer 52:10
Well, in a sense, we’ve got three brains in us. So we’ve got a brain up here, we’ve got a brain in our heart, we’ve got a brain in our gut, the enteric nervous system. So you know, we’re so over identified with our thoughts. Thoughts as who I am, I think that to get out of there is a big deal for most men.
Nathan Kettler 52:25
And if you’re if you don’t know what he’s talking about, and I’m a layman, so this is homie science 100% but they found the same cells that are in your brain and your heart and your gut. Yeah, just two way communication. It’s not you know, like just saying this is three like this is it but like, they’ve scientifically it just, you know, read a little bit. That’s just my homie science on it. No, that works.
Corey Benschop 52:46
coordinate all of my all of my sources. Yeah. Always disclaimer. Well, dr. john, this has been absolutely amazing man, and we definitely appreciate your time and And your expertise coming on and sharing with our audience and, and really, you know, just helping us all, kind of figure this thing called life out a little bit more on a deeper level, I think we can all definitely gain some success and some abilities out of this episode. So I really appreciate it, man.
Nathan Kettler 53:15
And I will and if you ever, if you ever want to get on and play around with the psychology of marketing, and sales, I would love to play with you because because you already provoked one brand new thought and I’m, I’m love, like I love like how the stories work and how this stuff. So if you’d ever like to get on and do an episode where we dive into that perspective of it, I’d love to invite you
John Schinnerer 53:36
well and Nathan, I’ve done a little work there with some Stanford psychiatrists on like looking at conscious emotion and subconscious emotion. And there’s some really interesting stories there too. All right.
Nathan Kettler 53:46
Yeah. Do we have to get you back on for a
Corey Benschop 53:48
second show, man? Definitely. Yeah, for sure. Yes. Awesome on thank you again, man. This has been a blast and pleasure. For everybody listening guys. Please, please, please take you know take the time that You need to take for yourself. Go check out Dr. John’s courses and his material. I will link everything down in the show show notes down below. Make sure you guys go check that out as well as his podcast, the evolved caveman podcast, which unfortunately we didn’t get time to talk about. But like I said, I listened to it a little bit earlier before we got started. It is a great show. So go check that stuff out. You see what value is bringing? Absolutely, absolutely. So thanks, john. Thank you again, man. And I guess we’ll catch you on the next one.
Unknown Speaker 54:25
Corey Benschop 54:26
All right. Bye. Thanks for listening to another episode of The Rising entrepreneur.com I really hope you got value from today’s show. And please make sure you don’t forget to subscribe so that you don’t miss the two new episodes we release each week on Mondays and Thursdays Be sure to visit The Rising entrepreneur.com to join the conversation, access the show notes and discover our amazing bonus content. And Hey, have you joined the movement yet? Make sure you join our free Facebook group called The Rising Entrepreneur is movement to connect with our guests and get access to all sorts of training materials that will help you better build your business. To join the movement. Just go to my FB group com that’s my FB group.com Alright, that’s it for today’s episode. We’ll catch you on the next one.